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an old geezer running visual studio for the first timeIf you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual upgrade of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET / VB.NET. While the study of the language differences and all the new features in .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit shell-schocked after installing and running for the first time Visual Studio .Net (2003 edition). Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. with a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of Frontpage for page layout, and my browser to see the results when running the page against a local instance of IIS. I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from yellow pages to accounting programs. But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to start. The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to programming, eliminating the need for external apps. During the past couple of years I have developed my own little collection of helpers which I use during development. VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or cut/paste - depending on the situation. I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the designed to be grid-based or flow-based. Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different files. I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, subs etc above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% %> tags. This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move to ..NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, a tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy which apparently could improve my productivity. Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through the same process would be most welcome. Thanks TB Although it is not necessary to use vs, and many people don't,
a solution is to Google --> books visual studio Show quoteHide quote "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > Hi all: > > If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then > please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. > > A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual upgrade > of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET / VB.NET. > > While the study of the language differences and all the new features in > .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit shell-schocked > after installing and running for the first time Visual Studio .Net (2003 > edition). > > Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. with > a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of Frontpage > for page layout, and my browser to see the results when running the page > against a local instance of IIS. > > I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from yellow > pages to accounting programs. > > But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to > start. > > The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to programming, > eliminating the need for external apps. During the past couple of years I > have developed my own little collection of helpers which I use during > development. > > VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management > normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and > functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or > cut/paste - depending on the situation. > > I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page > layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the designed > to be grid-based or flow-based. > > Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different files. > I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, subs etc > above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% %> tags. > This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. > > Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move to > .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, a > tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy which > apparently could improve my productivity. > > Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through the > same process would be most welcome. > > Thanks > > TB > > > These 3 suggestions will hopefully help a lot:
1. Consider developing your aspx and ascx files in FrontPage, Dreamweaver, Notepad, or whatever is your favorite HTML and/or CSS editor - and limit your use of VS.NET to (1) all programming work (code-behind logic) and (2) launching you application for testing purposes. VS.NET 2003 most definitely NOT the place to write HTML - so no need for you to think about grid vs flow layouts. Reason being that VS.NET 2003 will rewrite your HTML for you - often with disastrous results. This link from a Microsoft insider explains: http://blogs.msdn.com/MikhailArkhipov/archive/2004/05/16/132886.aspx The upshot is that many of us use FrontPage or Dreamweaver for all HTML-specific work (i.e., ASPX and ASCX file development) and use VS.NET only for programming/code-behind work. The way I develop is that I keep a copy of Dreamweaver running at all times along side VS.NET 2003 - and switch between the two. One last point here is that VS.NET 2005 - due out in November or so - is expected to no longer have the HTML rendering and management issues that VS.NET 2003 has. 2. Get this book: Programming ASP.NET - by Dino Esposito - Microsoft Press. It puts everything in context - IMHO ideal for your situation. It's not a step-by-step tutorial, but it is more valuable because tells you how to understand ASP.NET. 3. Familiarize yourself with the starter kits at the following link: http://www.asp.net/Default.aspx?tabindex=8&tabid=47. I'd especially recommend that you download and disect the Commerce starter kit. The starter kits are complete ASP.NET Web applications and include all source code - which is very readable and well-documented. The Commerce starter kit is one of the simpler - so it would be a good starting point as it incorporates many fundamentals. -HTH -JT Show quoteHide quote "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > Hi all: > > If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then > please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. > > A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual upgrade > of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET / VB.NET. > > While the study of the language differences and all the new features in > .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit shell-schocked > after installing and running for the first time Visual Studio .Net (2003 > edition). > > Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. with > a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of Frontpage > for page layout, and my browser to see the results when running the page > against a local instance of IIS. > > I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from yellow > pages to accounting programs. > > But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to > start. > > The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to programming, > eliminating the need for external apps. During the past couple of years I > have developed my own little collection of helpers which I use during > development. > > VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management > normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and > functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or > cut/paste - depending on the situation. > > I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page > layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the designed > to be grid-based or flow-based. > > Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different files. > I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, subs etc > above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% %> tags. > This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. > > Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move to > .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, a > tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy which > apparently could improve my productivity. > > Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through the > same process would be most welcome. > > Thanks > > TB > > > Thank your very much for bothering to answer this "old newbie".
I will follow your advice. Particularly I will desect some of the sample projects on www.asp.net to learn how code-behind truly works. Actually it sounds like an interesting concept, but I supose (without knowing anything yet) that there are several degrees of code-behind depending on how puritanic you are or how much time you have left to finish a job. I guess that it also difficult for .NET developers to resist the temptation to get dirty and throw in a bit of inline code here and there just to get a project out of the door. I will also take a serious look at the book you suggest. Another question, now that I got you "on the line": Is it possible to make VS.NET work perfectly / natively / transparently with MySQL? TB Show quoteHide quote "Jeffrey Todd" <M*@Somewhere.net> wrote in message news:eM04AAsbFHA.1040@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... > These 3 suggestions will hopefully help a lot: > > 1. Consider developing your aspx and ascx files in FrontPage, Dreamweaver, > Notepad, or whatever is your favorite HTML and/or CSS editor - and limit > your use of VS.NET to (1) all programming work (code-behind logic) and (2) > launching you application for testing purposes. VS.NET 2003 most > definitely NOT the place to write HTML - so no need for you to think about > grid vs flow layouts. Reason being that VS.NET 2003 will rewrite your HTML > for you - often with disastrous results. This link from a Microsoft > insider explains: > http://blogs.msdn.com/MikhailArkhipov/archive/2004/05/16/132886.aspx > The upshot is that many of us use FrontPage or Dreamweaver for all > HTML-specific work (i.e., ASPX and ASCX file development) and use VS.NET > only for programming/code-behind work. The way I develop is that I keep a > copy of Dreamweaver running at all times along side VS.NET 2003 - and > switch between the two. One last point here is that VS.NET 2005 - due out > in November or so - is expected to no longer have the HTML rendering and > management issues that VS.NET 2003 has. > > 2. Get this book: Programming ASP.NET - by Dino Esposito - Microsoft > Press. It puts everything in context - IMHO ideal for your situation. It's > not a step-by-step tutorial, but it is more valuable because tells you how > to understand ASP.NET. > > 3. Familiarize yourself with the starter kits at the following link: > http://www.asp.net/Default.aspx?tabindex=8&tabid=47. I'd especially > recommend that you download and disect the Commerce starter kit. The > starter kits are complete ASP.NET Web applications and include all source > code - which is very readable and well-documented. The Commerce starter > kit is one of the simpler - so it would be a good starting point as it > incorporates many fundamentals. > > -HTH > > -JT > > > > "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >> Hi all: >> >> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then >> please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. >> >> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual upgrade >> of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET / VB.NET. >> >> While the study of the language differences and all the new features in >> .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit >> shell-schocked after installing and running for the first time Visual >> Studio .Net (2003 edition). >> >> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. >> with a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of >> Frontpage for page layout, and my browser to see the results when running >> the page against a local instance of IIS. >> >> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from yellow >> pages to accounting programs. >> >> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to >> start. >> >> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to programming, >> eliminating the need for external apps. During the past couple of years I >> have developed my own little collection of helpers which I use during >> development. >> >> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management >> normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and >> functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or >> cut/paste - depending on the situation. >> >> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page >> layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the designed >> to be grid-based or flow-based. >> >> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different files. >> I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, subs etc >> above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% %> tags. >> This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. >> >> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move >> to .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, a >> tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy which >> apparently could improve my productivity. >> >> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through >> the same process would be most welcome. >> >> Thanks >> >> TB >> >> >> > > TB, in the MySQL website, there's a mySql ADO.NET provider. Meaning that you
can use it to access mySql natively from .Net. You can still use the OleDb or ODBC providers too if you want. Check it out: http://www.mysql.com/products/connector/net/ - Sergio Show quoteHide quote "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:eaWTn63bFHA.3492@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > Thank your very much for bothering to answer this "old newbie". > > I will follow your advice. Particularly I will desect some of the sample > projects on www.asp.net to learn how code-behind truly works. Actually it > sounds like an interesting concept, but I supose (without knowing anything > yet) that there are several degrees of code-behind depending on how > puritanic you are or how much time you have left to finish a job. I guess > that it also difficult for .NET developers to resist the temptation to get > dirty and throw in a bit of inline code here and there just to get a project > out of the door. > > I will also take a serious look at the book you suggest. > > Another question, now that I got you "on the line": Is it possible to make > VS.NET work perfectly / natively / transparently with MySQL? > > TB > > > "Jeffrey Todd" <M*@Somewhere.net> wrote in message > news:eM04AAsbFHA.1040@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... > > These 3 suggestions will hopefully help a lot: > > > > 1. Consider developing your aspx and ascx files in FrontPage, Dreamweaver, > > Notepad, or whatever is your favorite HTML and/or CSS editor - and limit > > your use of VS.NET to (1) all programming work (code-behind logic) and (2) > > launching you application for testing purposes. VS.NET 2003 most > > definitely NOT the place to write HTML - so no need for you to think about > > grid vs flow layouts. Reason being that VS.NET 2003 will rewrite your HTML > > for you - often with disastrous results. This link from a Microsoft > > insider explains: > > http://blogs.msdn.com/MikhailArkhipov/archive/2004/05/16/132886.aspx > > The upshot is that many of us use FrontPage or Dreamweaver for all > > HTML-specific work (i.e., ASPX and ASCX file development) and use VS.NET > > only for programming/code-behind work. The way I develop is that I keep a > > copy of Dreamweaver running at all times along side VS.NET 2003 - and > > switch between the two. One last point here is that VS.NET 2005 - due out > > in November or so - is expected to no longer have the HTML rendering and > > management issues that VS.NET 2003 has. > > > > 2. Get this book: Programming ASP.NET - by Dino Esposito - Microsoft > > Press. It puts everything in context - IMHO ideal for your situation. It's > > not a step-by-step tutorial, but it is more valuable because tells you how > > to understand ASP.NET. > > > > 3. Familiarize yourself with the starter kits at the following link: > > http://www.asp.net/Default.aspx?tabindex=8&tabid=47. I'd especially > > recommend that you download and disect the Commerce starter kit. The > > starter kits are complete ASP.NET Web applications and include all source > > code - which is very readable and well-documented. The Commerce starter > > kit is one of the simpler - so it would be a good starting point as it > > incorporates many fundamentals. > > > > -HTH > > > > -JT > > > > > > > > "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > >> Hi all: > >> > >> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then > >> please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. > >> > >> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual upgrade > >> of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET / VB.NET. > >> > >> While the study of the language differences and all the new features in > >> .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit > >> shell-schocked after installing and running for the first time Visual > >> Studio .Net (2003 edition). > >> > >> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. > >> with a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of > >> Frontpage for page layout, and my browser to see the results when running > >> the page against a local instance of IIS. > >> > >> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from yellow > >> pages to accounting programs. > >> > >> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to > >> start. > >> > >> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to programming, > >> eliminating the need for external apps. During the past couple of years I > >> have developed my own little collection of helpers which I use during > >> development. > >> > >> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management > >> normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and > >> functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or > >> cut/paste - depending on the situation. > >> > >> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page > >> layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the designed > >> to be grid-based or flow-based. > >> > >> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different files. > >> I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, subs etc > >> above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% %> tags. > >> This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. > >> > >> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move > >> to .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, a > >> tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy which > >> apparently could improve my productivity. > >> > >> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through > >> the same process would be most welcome. > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> TB > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Hi TB
From cruising through your various comments in this thread I gather that you are very comfortable with the old school way to do things. One thought is to just stay there. Seriously. If you need to get stuff done, then might as well just stay where you are most productive (at least until you are comfortable with the new stuff). Now, the new way to do things will involve somewhat of a learning curve - but once you've traversed it, you'll be *way more* productive than you ever could have been with the old stuff. From your other comments it appears that you view ASP.NET and ADO.NET as somehow limiting what a developer can do - especially if the developer wants to "get down and dirty" and write some code. Not true at all. Much of what you have likely read is touting the "training wheels" that have been included in Visual Studio - like drag-and-droping DataAdapters into a visual surface. You should understand that most serious developers (at least the ones I've met) simply do not use such training wheels. You can ignore those and dive right into the code. When it comes to ADO.NET - you can actually write more code than you could have in classic ADO. Remember .UpdateBatch() in classic ADO? That actually writes a bunch of dynamic SQL under the covers for you that you never get to manipulate. ADO.NET actually gives you much more control and more granular control of inserts, updates, and deletes. I highly recommend to you another book "ADO.NET" by David Sceppa - Microsoft Press. A "must read" IMHO for anyone familiar with classic ADO moving to ADO.NET. Sceppa presents the new stuff and compares/contrasts it with classic ADO. Remember, ADO.NET is not simply the next version of classic ADO... it's a whole new way to interface with your data. And, to answer your particular question, yes - ADO.NET will let you work as easily with PHP as you can with SQL Server, Oracle, Access, or any other database or data store (even XML files). About the starter kits - I recommended the Commerce one because it is, IMHO, the most straight-forward; it shows you a lot of the nuts-n-bolts. This is on contrast to the Portal kit which shows some very cool stuff (like serving up an entire non trivial site through only one aspx page) - but it's stuff most projects likely won't need. -HTH Show quoteHide quote "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:eaWTn63bFHA.3492@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > Thank your very much for bothering to answer this "old newbie". > > I will follow your advice. Particularly I will desect some of the sample > projects on www.asp.net to learn how code-behind truly works. Actually it > sounds like an interesting concept, but I supose (without knowing anything > yet) that there are several degrees of code-behind depending on how > puritanic you are or how much time you have left to finish a job. I guess > that it also difficult for .NET developers to resist the temptation to get > dirty and throw in a bit of inline code here and there just to get a > project out of the door. > > I will also take a serious look at the book you suggest. > > Another question, now that I got you "on the line": Is it possible to make > VS.NET work perfectly / natively / transparently with MySQL? > > TB > > > "Jeffrey Todd" <M*@Somewhere.net> wrote in message > news:eM04AAsbFHA.1040@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... >> These 3 suggestions will hopefully help a lot: >> >> 1. Consider developing your aspx and ascx files in FrontPage, >> Dreamweaver, Notepad, or whatever is your favorite HTML and/or CSS >> editor - and limit your use of VS.NET to (1) all programming work >> (code-behind logic) and (2) launching you application for testing >> purposes. VS.NET 2003 most definitely NOT the place to write HTML - so no >> need for you to think about grid vs flow layouts. Reason being that >> VS.NET 2003 will rewrite your HTML for you - often with disastrous >> results. This link from a Microsoft insider explains: >> http://blogs.msdn.com/MikhailArkhipov/archive/2004/05/16/132886.aspx >> The upshot is that many of us use FrontPage or Dreamweaver for all >> HTML-specific work (i.e., ASPX and ASCX file development) and use VS.NET >> only for programming/code-behind work. The way I develop is that I keep a >> copy of Dreamweaver running at all times along side VS.NET 2003 - and >> switch between the two. One last point here is that VS.NET 2005 - due out >> in November or so - is expected to no longer have the HTML rendering and >> management issues that VS.NET 2003 has. >> >> 2. Get this book: Programming ASP.NET - by Dino Esposito - Microsoft >> Press. It puts everything in context - IMHO ideal for your situation. >> It's not a step-by-step tutorial, but it is more valuable because tells >> you how to understand ASP.NET. >> >> 3. Familiarize yourself with the starter kits at the following link: >> http://www.asp.net/Default.aspx?tabindex=8&tabid=47. I'd especially >> recommend that you download and disect the Commerce starter kit. The >> starter kits are complete ASP.NET Web applications and include all source >> code - which is very readable and well-documented. The Commerce starter >> kit is one of the simpler - so it would be a good starting point as it >> incorporates many fundamentals. >> >> -HTH >> >> -JT >> >> >> >> "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>> Hi all: >>> >>> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then >>> please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. >>> >>> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual >>> upgrade of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET / >>> VB.NET. >>> >>> While the study of the language differences and all the new features in >>> .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit >>> shell-schocked after installing and running for the first time Visual >>> Studio .Net (2003 edition). >>> >>> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. >>> with a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of >>> Frontpage for page layout, and my browser to see the results when >>> running the page against a local instance of IIS. >>> >>> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from yellow >>> pages to accounting programs. >>> >>> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to >>> start. >>> >>> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to programming, >>> eliminating the need for external apps. During the past couple of years >>> I have developed my own little collection of helpers which I use during >>> development. >>> >>> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management >>> normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and >>> functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or >>> cut/paste - depending on the situation. >>> >>> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page >>> layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the designed >>> to be grid-based or flow-based. >>> >>> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different >>> files. I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, >>> subs etc above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% >>> %> tags. This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. >>> >>> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move >>> to .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, a >>> tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy which >>> apparently could improve my productivity. >>> >>> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through >>> the same process would be most welcome. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> TB >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > I agree completely with Jeremy. A good programmer is definitely a control
freak, and wants to be in control of his/her app as much as possible. The "training wheels" analogy is perfect. For beginners, these types of tools can be the difference between getting started in ASP.Net and not getting started at all. But they are hardly intended to be a substitute for real hard-core programming, which is why the SDK has articles and tutorials on such subjects as designing and building custom Server Controls, etc. Some of the greatest aspects of Visual Studio.Net is that it can allow one to build something quick and dirty in a short period of time, or it will allow the developer to delve as deeply into the technology as one can go, all the way down to assembler and MSIL if necessary or desired. -- Show quoteHide quoteHTH, Kevin Spencer Microsoft MVP ..Net Developer Ambiguity has a certain quality to it. "Jeremy S" <A@B.COM> wrote in message news:ejj2gqDcFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > Hi TB > > From cruising through your various comments in this thread I gather that > you are very comfortable with the old school way to do things. One thought > is to just stay there. Seriously. If you need to get stuff done, then > might as well just stay where you are most productive (at least until you > are comfortable with the new stuff). > > Now, the new way to do things will involve somewhat of a learning curve - > but once you've traversed it, you'll be *way more* productive than you > ever could have been with the old stuff. > > From your other comments it appears that you view ASP.NET and ADO.NET as > somehow limiting what a developer can do - especially if the developer > wants to "get down and dirty" and write some code. Not true at all. Much > of what you have likely read is touting the "training wheels" that have > been included in Visual Studio - like drag-and-droping DataAdapters into a > visual surface. You should understand that most serious developers (at > least the ones I've met) simply do not use such training wheels. You can > ignore those and dive right into the code. When it comes to ADO.NET - you > can actually write more code than you could have in classic ADO. Remember > .UpdateBatch() in classic ADO? That actually writes a bunch of dynamic SQL > under the covers for you that you never get to manipulate. ADO.NET > actually gives you much more control and more granular control of inserts, > updates, and deletes. I highly recommend to you another book "ADO.NET" by > David Sceppa - Microsoft Press. A "must read" IMHO for anyone familiar > with classic ADO moving to ADO.NET. Sceppa presents the new stuff and > compares/contrasts it with classic ADO. Remember, ADO.NET is not simply > the next version of classic ADO... it's a whole new way to interface with > your data. And, to answer your particular question, yes - ADO.NET will let > you work as easily with PHP as you can with SQL Server, Oracle, Access, or > any other database or data store (even XML files). > > About the starter kits - I recommended the Commerce one because it is, > IMHO, the most straight-forward; it shows you a lot of the nuts-n-bolts. > This is on contrast to the Portal kit which shows some very cool stuff > (like serving up an entire non trivial site through only one aspx page) - > but it's stuff most projects likely won't need. > > -HTH > > > "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:eaWTn63bFHA.3492@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >> Thank your very much for bothering to answer this "old newbie". >> >> I will follow your advice. Particularly I will desect some of the sample >> projects on www.asp.net to learn how code-behind truly works. Actually it >> sounds like an interesting concept, but I supose (without knowing >> anything yet) that there are several degrees of code-behind depending on >> how puritanic you are or how much time you have left to finish a job. I >> guess that it also difficult for .NET developers to resist the temptation >> to get dirty and throw in a bit of inline code here and there just to get >> a project out of the door. >> >> I will also take a serious look at the book you suggest. >> >> Another question, now that I got you "on the line": Is it possible to >> make VS.NET work perfectly / natively / transparently with MySQL? >> >> TB >> >> >> "Jeffrey Todd" <M*@Somewhere.net> wrote in message >> news:eM04AAsbFHA.1040@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... >>> These 3 suggestions will hopefully help a lot: >>> >>> 1. Consider developing your aspx and ascx files in FrontPage, >>> Dreamweaver, Notepad, or whatever is your favorite HTML and/or CSS >>> editor - and limit your use of VS.NET to (1) all programming work >>> (code-behind logic) and (2) launching you application for testing >>> purposes. VS.NET 2003 most definitely NOT the place to write HTML - so >>> no need for you to think about grid vs flow layouts. Reason being that >>> VS.NET 2003 will rewrite your HTML for you - often with disastrous >>> results. This link from a Microsoft insider explains: >>> http://blogs.msdn.com/MikhailArkhipov/archive/2004/05/16/132886.aspx >>> The upshot is that many of us use FrontPage or Dreamweaver for all >>> HTML-specific work (i.e., ASPX and ASCX file development) and use VS.NET >>> only for programming/code-behind work. The way I develop is that I keep >>> a copy of Dreamweaver running at all times along side VS.NET 2003 - and >>> switch between the two. One last point here is that VS.NET 2005 - due >>> out in November or so - is expected to no longer have the HTML rendering >>> and management issues that VS.NET 2003 has. >>> >>> 2. Get this book: Programming ASP.NET - by Dino Esposito - Microsoft >>> Press. It puts everything in context - IMHO ideal for your situation. >>> It's not a step-by-step tutorial, but it is more valuable because tells >>> you how to understand ASP.NET. >>> >>> 3. Familiarize yourself with the starter kits at the following link: >>> http://www.asp.net/Default.aspx?tabindex=8&tabid=47. I'd especially >>> recommend that you download and disect the Commerce starter kit. The >>> starter kits are complete ASP.NET Web applications and include all >>> source code - which is very readable and well-documented. The Commerce >>> starter kit is one of the simpler - so it would be a good starting point >>> as it incorporates many fundamentals. >>> >>> -HTH >>> >>> -JT >>> >>> >>> >>> "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>> news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>> Hi all: >>>> >>>> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then >>>> please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. >>>> >>>> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual >>>> upgrade of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET >>>> / VB.NET. >>>> >>>> While the study of the language differences and all the new features in >>>> .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit >>>> shell-schocked after installing and running for the first time Visual >>>> Studio .Net (2003 edition). >>>> >>>> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. >>>> with a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of >>>> Frontpage for page layout, and my browser to see the results when >>>> running the page against a local instance of IIS. >>>> >>>> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from >>>> yellow pages to accounting programs. >>>> >>>> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to >>>> start. >>>> >>>> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to >>>> programming, eliminating the need for external apps. During the past >>>> couple of years I have developed my own little collection of helpers >>>> which I use during development. >>>> >>>> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management >>>> normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and >>>> functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or >>>> cut/paste - depending on the situation. >>>> >>>> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page >>>> layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the >>>> designed to be grid-based or flow-based. >>>> >>>> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different >>>> files. I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, >>>> subs etc above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% >>>> %> tags. This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. >>>> >>>> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move >>>> to .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, >>>> a tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy >>>> which apparently could improve my productivity. >>>> >>>> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through >>>> the same process would be most welcome. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> TB >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > Please refer to my reply to Jeremy.
Anyway, I am beginning to realize that a decision to adopt VS.NET is not caused by a love-at-first-sght / wow experience, because it is about the most unsexy, userunfriendly program I have seen in a long time. But my experience in programming has taught me to keep my eye on the ball, which in this case is called long-term productivity gains, a area in which VS.NET will hopefully prove its worth. TB Show quoteHide quote "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message news:e%23Tvn$DcFHA.456@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... >I agree completely with Jeremy. A good programmer is definitely a control >freak, and wants to be in control of his/her app as much as possible. The >"training wheels" analogy is perfect. For beginners, these types of tools >can be the difference between getting started in ASP.Net and not getting >started at all. But they are hardly intended to be a substitute for real >hard-core programming, which is why the SDK has articles and tutorials on >such subjects as designing and building custom Server Controls, etc. Some >of the greatest aspects of Visual Studio.Net is that it can allow one to >build something quick and dirty in a short period of time, or it will allow >the developer to delve as deeply into the technology as one can go, all the >way down to assembler and MSIL if necessary or desired. > > -- > HTH, > > Kevin Spencer > Microsoft MVP > .Net Developer > Ambiguity has a certain quality to it. > > "Jeremy S" <A@B.COM> wrote in message > news:ejj2gqDcFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >> Hi TB >> >> From cruising through your various comments in this thread I gather that >> you are very comfortable with the old school way to do things. One >> thought is to just stay there. Seriously. If you need to get stuff done, >> then might as well just stay where you are most productive (at least >> until you are comfortable with the new stuff). >> >> Now, the new way to do things will involve somewhat of a learning curve - >> but once you've traversed it, you'll be *way more* productive than you >> ever could have been with the old stuff. >> >> From your other comments it appears that you view ASP.NET and ADO.NET as >> somehow limiting what a developer can do - especially if the developer >> wants to "get down and dirty" and write some code. Not true at all. Much >> of what you have likely read is touting the "training wheels" that have >> been included in Visual Studio - like drag-and-droping DataAdapters into >> a visual surface. You should understand that most serious developers (at >> least the ones I've met) simply do not use such training wheels. You can >> ignore those and dive right into the code. When it comes to ADO.NET - you >> can actually write more code than you could have in classic ADO. Remember >> .UpdateBatch() in classic ADO? That actually writes a bunch of dynamic >> SQL under the covers for you that you never get to manipulate. ADO.NET >> actually gives you much more control and more granular control of >> inserts, updates, and deletes. I highly recommend to you another book >> "ADO.NET" by David Sceppa - Microsoft Press. A "must read" IMHO for >> anyone familiar with classic ADO moving to ADO.NET. Sceppa presents the >> new stuff and compares/contrasts it with classic ADO. Remember, ADO.NET >> is not simply the next version of classic ADO... it's a whole new way to >> interface with your data. And, to answer your particular question, yes - >> ADO.NET will let you work as easily with PHP as you can with SQL Server, >> Oracle, Access, or any other database or data store (even XML files). >> >> About the starter kits - I recommended the Commerce one because it is, >> IMHO, the most straight-forward; it shows you a lot of the nuts-n-bolts. >> This is on contrast to the Portal kit which shows some very cool stuff >> (like serving up an entire non trivial site through only one aspx page) - >> but it's stuff most projects likely won't need. >> >> -HTH >> >> >> "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:eaWTn63bFHA.3492@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>> Thank your very much for bothering to answer this "old newbie". >>> >>> I will follow your advice. Particularly I will desect some of the sample >>> projects on www.asp.net to learn how code-behind truly works. Actually >>> it sounds like an interesting concept, but I supose (without knowing >>> anything yet) that there are several degrees of code-behind depending on >>> how puritanic you are or how much time you have left to finish a job. I >>> guess that it also difficult for .NET developers to resist the >>> temptation to get dirty and throw in a bit of inline code here and there >>> just to get a project out of the door. >>> >>> I will also take a serious look at the book you suggest. >>> >>> Another question, now that I got you "on the line": Is it possible to >>> make VS.NET work perfectly / natively / transparently with MySQL? >>> >>> TB >>> >>> >>> "Jeffrey Todd" <M*@Somewhere.net> wrote in message >>> news:eM04AAsbFHA.1040@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... >>>> These 3 suggestions will hopefully help a lot: >>>> >>>> 1. Consider developing your aspx and ascx files in FrontPage, >>>> Dreamweaver, Notepad, or whatever is your favorite HTML and/or CSS >>>> editor - and limit your use of VS.NET to (1) all programming work >>>> (code-behind logic) and (2) launching you application for testing >>>> purposes. VS.NET 2003 most definitely NOT the place to write HTML - so >>>> no need for you to think about grid vs flow layouts. Reason being that >>>> VS.NET 2003 will rewrite your HTML for you - often with disastrous >>>> results. This link from a Microsoft insider explains: >>>> http://blogs.msdn.com/MikhailArkhipov/archive/2004/05/16/132886.aspx >>>> The upshot is that many of us use FrontPage or Dreamweaver for all >>>> HTML-specific work (i.e., ASPX and ASCX file development) and use >>>> VS.NET only for programming/code-behind work. The way I develop is that >>>> I keep a copy of Dreamweaver running at all times along side VS.NET >>>> 2003 - and switch between the two. One last point here is that VS.NET >>>> 2005 - due out in November or so - is expected to no longer have the >>>> HTML rendering and management issues that VS.NET 2003 has. >>>> >>>> 2. Get this book: Programming ASP.NET - by Dino Esposito - Microsoft >>>> Press. It puts everything in context - IMHO ideal for your situation. >>>> It's not a step-by-step tutorial, but it is more valuable because tells >>>> you how to understand ASP.NET. >>>> >>>> 3. Familiarize yourself with the starter kits at the following link: >>>> http://www.asp.net/Default.aspx?tabindex=8&tabid=47. I'd especially >>>> recommend that you download and disect the Commerce starter kit. The >>>> starter kits are complete ASP.NET Web applications and include all >>>> source code - which is very readable and well-documented. The Commerce >>>> starter kit is one of the simpler - so it would be a good starting >>>> point as it incorporates many fundamentals. >>>> >>>> -HTH >>>> >>>> -JT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>> news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>>> Hi all: >>>>> >>>>> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then >>>>> please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. >>>>> >>>>> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual >>>>> upgrade of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET >>>>> / VB.NET. >>>>> >>>>> While the study of the language differences and all the new features >>>>> in .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit >>>>> shell-schocked after installing and running for the first time Visual >>>>> Studio .Net (2003 edition). >>>>> >>>>> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. >>>>> with a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of >>>>> Frontpage for page layout, and my browser to see the results when >>>>> running the page against a local instance of IIS. >>>>> >>>>> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from >>>>> yellow pages to accounting programs. >>>>> >>>>> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where >>>>> to start. >>>>> >>>>> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to >>>>> programming, eliminating the need for external apps. During the past >>>>> couple of years I have developed my own little collection of helpers >>>>> which I use during development. >>>>> >>>>> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management >>>>> normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and >>>>> functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or >>>>> cut/paste - depending on the situation. >>>>> >>>>> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page >>>>> layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the >>>>> designed to be grid-based or flow-based. >>>>> >>>>> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different >>>>> files. I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, >>>>> subs etc above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between >>>>> <% %> tags. This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. >>>>> >>>>> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to >>>>> move to .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a >>>>> book, a tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new >>>>> toy which apparently could improve my productivity. >>>>> >>>>> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through >>>>> the same process would be most welcome. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> TB >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > Well, TB, of course it's "userunfriendly." It is, however, very
"programmer-friendly." Most programmers I know are very "userunfriendly." ;-) -- Show quoteHide quoteHTH, Kevin Spencer Microsoft MVP ..Net Developer Ambiguity has a certain quality to it. "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:ewXfZ%23bcFHA.2520@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... > Please refer to my reply to Jeremy. > > Anyway, I am beginning to realize that a decision to adopt VS.NET is not > caused by a love-at-first-sght / wow experience, because it is about the > most unsexy, userunfriendly program I have seen in a long time. But my > experience in programming has taught me to keep my eye on the ball, which > in this case is called long-term productivity gains, a area in which > VS.NET will hopefully prove its worth. > > TB > > > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message > news:e%23Tvn$DcFHA.456@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... >>I agree completely with Jeremy. A good programmer is definitely a control >>freak, and wants to be in control of his/her app as much as possible. The >>"training wheels" analogy is perfect. For beginners, these types of tools >>can be the difference between getting started in ASP.Net and not getting >>started at all. But they are hardly intended to be a substitute for real >>hard-core programming, which is why the SDK has articles and tutorials on >>such subjects as designing and building custom Server Controls, etc. Some >>of the greatest aspects of Visual Studio.Net is that it can allow one to >>build something quick and dirty in a short period of time, or it will >>allow the developer to delve as deeply into the technology as one can go, >>all the way down to assembler and MSIL if necessary or desired. >> >> -- >> HTH, >> >> Kevin Spencer >> Microsoft MVP >> .Net Developer >> Ambiguity has a certain quality to it. >> >> "Jeremy S" <A@B.COM> wrote in message >> news:ejj2gqDcFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>> Hi TB >>> >>> From cruising through your various comments in this thread I gather that >>> you are very comfortable with the old school way to do things. One >>> thought is to just stay there. Seriously. If you need to get stuff done, >>> then might as well just stay where you are most productive (at least >>> until you are comfortable with the new stuff). >>> >>> Now, the new way to do things will involve somewhat of a learning >>> curve - but once you've traversed it, you'll be *way more* productive >>> than you ever could have been with the old stuff. >>> >>> From your other comments it appears that you view ASP.NET and ADO.NET as >>> somehow limiting what a developer can do - especially if the developer >>> wants to "get down and dirty" and write some code. Not true at all. Much >>> of what you have likely read is touting the "training wheels" that have >>> been included in Visual Studio - like drag-and-droping DataAdapters into >>> a visual surface. You should understand that most serious developers (at >>> least the ones I've met) simply do not use such training wheels. You can >>> ignore those and dive right into the code. When it comes to ADO.NET - >>> you can actually write more code than you could have in classic ADO. >>> Remember .UpdateBatch() in classic ADO? That actually writes a bunch of >>> dynamic SQL under the covers for you that you never get to manipulate. >>> ADO.NET actually gives you much more control and more granular control >>> of inserts, updates, and deletes. I highly recommend to you another book >>> "ADO.NET" by David Sceppa - Microsoft Press. A "must read" IMHO for >>> anyone familiar with classic ADO moving to ADO.NET. Sceppa presents the >>> new stuff and compares/contrasts it with classic ADO. Remember, ADO.NET >>> is not simply the next version of classic ADO... it's a whole new way to >>> interface with your data. And, to answer your particular question, yes - >>> ADO.NET will let you work as easily with PHP as you can with SQL Server, >>> Oracle, Access, or any other database or data store (even XML files). >>> >>> About the starter kits - I recommended the Commerce one because it is, >>> IMHO, the most straight-forward; it shows you a lot of the nuts-n-bolts. >>> This is on contrast to the Portal kit which shows some very cool stuff >>> (like serving up an entire non trivial site through only one aspx >>> page) - but it's stuff most projects likely won't need. >>> >>> -HTH >>> >>> >>> "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>> news:eaWTn63bFHA.3492@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>> Thank your very much for bothering to answer this "old newbie". >>>> >>>> I will follow your advice. Particularly I will desect some of the >>>> sample projects on www.asp.net to learn how code-behind truly works. >>>> Actually it sounds like an interesting concept, but I supose (without >>>> knowing anything yet) that there are several degrees of code-behind >>>> depending on how puritanic you are or how much time you have left to >>>> finish a job. I guess that it also difficult for .NET developers to >>>> resist the temptation to get dirty and throw in a bit of inline code >>>> here and there just to get a project out of the door. >>>> >>>> I will also take a serious look at the book you suggest. >>>> >>>> Another question, now that I got you "on the line": Is it possible to >>>> make VS.NET work perfectly / natively / transparently with MySQL? >>>> >>>> TB >>>> >>>> >>>> "Jeffrey Todd" <M*@Somewhere.net> wrote in message >>>> news:eM04AAsbFHA.1040@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... >>>>> These 3 suggestions will hopefully help a lot: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Consider developing your aspx and ascx files in FrontPage, >>>>> Dreamweaver, Notepad, or whatever is your favorite HTML and/or CSS >>>>> editor - and limit your use of VS.NET to (1) all programming work >>>>> (code-behind logic) and (2) launching you application for testing >>>>> purposes. VS.NET 2003 most definitely NOT the place to write HTML - so >>>>> no need for you to think about grid vs flow layouts. Reason being that >>>>> VS.NET 2003 will rewrite your HTML for you - often with disastrous >>>>> results. This link from a Microsoft insider explains: >>>>> http://blogs.msdn.com/MikhailArkhipov/archive/2004/05/16/132886.aspx >>>>> The upshot is that many of us use FrontPage or Dreamweaver for all >>>>> HTML-specific work (i.e., ASPX and ASCX file development) and use >>>>> VS.NET only for programming/code-behind work. The way I develop is >>>>> that I keep a copy of Dreamweaver running at all times along side >>>>> VS.NET 2003 - and switch between the two. One last point here is that >>>>> VS.NET 2005 - due out in November or so - is expected to no longer >>>>> have the HTML rendering and management issues that VS.NET 2003 has. >>>>> >>>>> 2. Get this book: Programming ASP.NET - by Dino Esposito - Microsoft >>>>> Press. It puts everything in context - IMHO ideal for your situation. >>>>> It's not a step-by-step tutorial, but it is more valuable because >>>>> tells you how to understand ASP.NET. >>>>> >>>>> 3. Familiarize yourself with the starter kits at the following link: >>>>> http://www.asp.net/Default.aspx?tabindex=8&tabid=47. I'd especially >>>>> recommend that you download and disect the Commerce starter kit. The >>>>> starter kits are complete ASP.NET Web applications and include all >>>>> source code - which is very readable and well-documented. The Commerce >>>>> starter kit is one of the simpler - so it would be a good starting >>>>> point as it incorporates many fundamentals. >>>>> >>>>> -HTH >>>>> >>>>> -JT >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>>>> Hi all: >>>>>> >>>>>> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, >>>>>> then please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. >>>>>> >>>>>> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual >>>>>> upgrade of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to >>>>>> ASP.NET / VB.NET. >>>>>> >>>>>> While the study of the language differences and all the new features >>>>>> in .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit >>>>>> shell-schocked after installing and running for the first time Visual >>>>>> Studio .Net (2003 edition). >>>>>> >>>>>> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. >>>>>> with a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of >>>>>> Frontpage for page layout, and my browser to see the results when >>>>>> running the page against a local instance of IIS. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from >>>>>> yellow pages to accounting programs. >>>>>> >>>>>> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where >>>>>> to start. >>>>>> >>>>>> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to >>>>>> programming, eliminating the need for external apps. During the past >>>>>> couple of years I have developed my own little collection of helpers >>>>>> which I use during development. >>>>>> >>>>>> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management >>>>>> normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and >>>>>> functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or >>>>>> cut/paste - depending on the situation. >>>>>> >>>>>> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page >>>>>> layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the >>>>>> designed to be grid-based or flow-based. >>>>>> >>>>>> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different >>>>>> files. I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, >>>>>> subs etc above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between >>>>>> <% %> tags. This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. >>>>>> >>>>>> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to >>>>>> move to .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a >>>>>> book, a tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a >>>>>> new toy which apparently could improve my productivity. >>>>>> >>>>>> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been >>>>>> through the same process would be most welcome. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> TB >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > Don't get me wrong:
1) To me programming is a way of making money, not a way of life. Therefore I will not abandon classic ASP, which for the moment pays my bills, until I can offer my customers .NET solutions upon which I can place my personal seal of quality. I have set a time frame of about 1 year to get up to speed on ASP.NET and meanwhile continue with the bread-and-butter business. 2) My initial negative reaction is/was directed towards a specifc program (VS.NET) and not the technology itself. As I mentioned in first post, my study of the technology is progressing fine. Training wheels: I agree 100% with your point of view. I am a hands-on person, and in my book WYSIWYG is looking at the code because that is the only place you can see what you really are going to get and - and more importantly - why. The only situation where I use Frontpage is for drawing tables, because it is pain to make a complex table grid writing out all the html line by line. TB Show quoteHide quote "Jeremy S" <A@B.COM> wrote in message news:ejj2gqDcFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > Hi TB > > From cruising through your various comments in this thread I gather that > you are very comfortable with the old school way to do things. One thought > is to just stay there. Seriously. If you need to get stuff done, then > might as well just stay where you are most productive (at least until you > are comfortable with the new stuff). > > Now, the new way to do things will involve somewhat of a learning curve - > but once you've traversed it, you'll be *way more* productive than you > ever could have been with the old stuff. > > From your other comments it appears that you view ASP.NET and ADO.NET as > somehow limiting what a developer can do - especially if the developer > wants to "get down and dirty" and write some code. Not true at all. Much > of what you have likely read is touting the "training wheels" that have > been included in Visual Studio - like drag-and-droping DataAdapters into a > visual surface. You should understand that most serious developers (at > least the ones I've met) simply do not use such training wheels. You can > ignore those and dive right into the code. When it comes to ADO.NET - you > can actually write more code than you could have in classic ADO. Remember > .UpdateBatch() in classic ADO? That actually writes a bunch of dynamic SQL > under the covers for you that you never get to manipulate. ADO.NET > actually gives you much more control and more granular control of inserts, > updates, and deletes. I highly recommend to you another book "ADO.NET" by > David Sceppa - Microsoft Press. A "must read" IMHO for anyone familiar > with classic ADO moving to ADO.NET. Sceppa presents the new stuff and > compares/contrasts it with classic ADO. Remember, ADO.NET is not simply > the next version of classic ADO... it's a whole new way to interface with > your data. And, to answer your particular question, yes - ADO.NET will let > you work as easily with PHP as you can with SQL Server, Oracle, Access, or > any other database or data store (even XML files). > > About the starter kits - I recommended the Commerce one because it is, > IMHO, the most straight-forward; it shows you a lot of the nuts-n-bolts. > This is on contrast to the Portal kit which shows some very cool stuff > (like serving up an entire non trivial site through only one aspx page) - > but it's stuff most projects likely won't need. > > -HTH > > > "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:eaWTn63bFHA.3492@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >> Thank your very much for bothering to answer this "old newbie". >> >> I will follow your advice. Particularly I will desect some of the sample >> projects on www.asp.net to learn how code-behind truly works. Actually it >> sounds like an interesting concept, but I supose (without knowing >> anything yet) that there are several degrees of code-behind depending on >> how puritanic you are or how much time you have left to finish a job. I >> guess that it also difficult for .NET developers to resist the temptation >> to get dirty and throw in a bit of inline code here and there just to get >> a project out of the door. >> >> I will also take a serious look at the book you suggest. >> >> Another question, now that I got you "on the line": Is it possible to >> make VS.NET work perfectly / natively / transparently with MySQL? >> >> TB >> >> >> "Jeffrey Todd" <M*@Somewhere.net> wrote in message >> news:eM04AAsbFHA.1040@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... >>> These 3 suggestions will hopefully help a lot: >>> >>> 1. Consider developing your aspx and ascx files in FrontPage, >>> Dreamweaver, Notepad, or whatever is your favorite HTML and/or CSS >>> editor - and limit your use of VS.NET to (1) all programming work >>> (code-behind logic) and (2) launching you application for testing >>> purposes. VS.NET 2003 most definitely NOT the place to write HTML - so >>> no need for you to think about grid vs flow layouts. Reason being that >>> VS.NET 2003 will rewrite your HTML for you - often with disastrous >>> results. This link from a Microsoft insider explains: >>> http://blogs.msdn.com/MikhailArkhipov/archive/2004/05/16/132886.aspx >>> The upshot is that many of us use FrontPage or Dreamweaver for all >>> HTML-specific work (i.e., ASPX and ASCX file development) and use VS.NET >>> only for programming/code-behind work. The way I develop is that I keep >>> a copy of Dreamweaver running at all times along side VS.NET 2003 - and >>> switch between the two. One last point here is that VS.NET 2005 - due >>> out in November or so - is expected to no longer have the HTML rendering >>> and management issues that VS.NET 2003 has. >>> >>> 2. Get this book: Programming ASP.NET - by Dino Esposito - Microsoft >>> Press. It puts everything in context - IMHO ideal for your situation. >>> It's not a step-by-step tutorial, but it is more valuable because tells >>> you how to understand ASP.NET. >>> >>> 3. Familiarize yourself with the starter kits at the following link: >>> http://www.asp.net/Default.aspx?tabindex=8&tabid=47. I'd especially >>> recommend that you download and disect the Commerce starter kit. The >>> starter kits are complete ASP.NET Web applications and include all >>> source code - which is very readable and well-documented. The Commerce >>> starter kit is one of the simpler - so it would be a good starting point >>> as it incorporates many fundamentals. >>> >>> -HTH >>> >>> -JT >>> >>> >>> >>> "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>> news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>> Hi all: >>>> >>>> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then >>>> please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. >>>> >>>> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual >>>> upgrade of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET >>>> / VB.NET. >>>> >>>> While the study of the language differences and all the new features in >>>> .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit >>>> shell-schocked after installing and running for the first time Visual >>>> Studio .Net (2003 edition). >>>> >>>> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. >>>> with a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of >>>> Frontpage for page layout, and my browser to see the results when >>>> running the page against a local instance of IIS. >>>> >>>> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from >>>> yellow pages to accounting programs. >>>> >>>> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to >>>> start. >>>> >>>> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to >>>> programming, eliminating the need for external apps. During the past >>>> couple of years I have developed my own little collection of helpers >>>> which I use during development. >>>> >>>> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management >>>> normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and >>>> functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or >>>> cut/paste - depending on the situation. >>>> >>>> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page >>>> layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the >>>> designed to be grid-based or flow-based. >>>> >>>> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different >>>> files. I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, >>>> subs etc above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% >>>> %> tags. This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. >>>> >>>> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move >>>> to .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, >>>> a tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy >>>> which apparently could improve my productivity. >>>> >>>> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through >>>> the same process would be most welcome. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> TB >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > Hi TB,
Re number 1: My Uncle Chutney has a saying - "What You Seek Is What You Get." If you seek money, you will probably fail as a programmer, but you will make money as one. Many people do. -- Show quoteHide quoteHTH, Kevin Spencer Microsoft MVP ..Net Developer Ambiguity has a certain quality to it. "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:uXTF33bcFHA.4040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > Don't get me wrong: > > 1) To me programming is a way of making money, not a way of life. > Therefore I will not abandon classic ASP, which for the moment pays my > bills, until I can offer my customers .NET solutions upon which I can > place my personal seal of quality. I have set a time frame of about 1 year > to get up to speed on ASP.NET and meanwhile continue with the > bread-and-butter business. > > 2) My initial negative reaction is/was directed towards a specifc program > (VS.NET) and not the technology itself. As I mentioned in first post, my > study of the technology is progressing fine. > > Training wheels: I agree 100% with your point of view. I am a hands-on > person, and in my book WYSIWYG is looking at the code because that is the > only place you can see what you really are going to get and - and more > importantly - why. The only situation where I use Frontpage is for drawing > tables, because it is pain to make a complex table grid writing out all > the html line by line. > > TB > > "Jeremy S" <A@B.COM> wrote in message > news:ejj2gqDcFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >> Hi TB >> >> From cruising through your various comments in this thread I gather that >> you are very comfortable with the old school way to do things. One >> thought >> is to just stay there. Seriously. If you need to get stuff done, then >> might as well just stay where you are most productive (at least until you >> are comfortable with the new stuff). >> >> Now, the new way to do things will involve somewhat of a learning curve - >> but once you've traversed it, you'll be *way more* productive than you >> ever could have been with the old stuff. >> >> From your other comments it appears that you view ASP.NET and ADO.NET as >> somehow limiting what a developer can do - especially if the developer >> wants to "get down and dirty" and write some code. Not true at all. Much >> of what you have likely read is touting the "training wheels" that have >> been included in Visual Studio - like drag-and-droping DataAdapters into >> a >> visual surface. You should understand that most serious developers (at >> least the ones I've met) simply do not use such training wheels. You can >> ignore those and dive right into the code. When it comes to ADO.NET - you >> can actually write more code than you could have in classic ADO. Remember >> .UpdateBatch() in classic ADO? That actually writes a bunch of dynamic >> SQL >> under the covers for you that you never get to manipulate. ADO.NET >> actually gives you much more control and more granular control of >> inserts, >> updates, and deletes. I highly recommend to you another book "ADO.NET" by >> David Sceppa - Microsoft Press. A "must read" IMHO for anyone familiar >> with classic ADO moving to ADO.NET. Sceppa presents the new stuff and >> compares/contrasts it with classic ADO. Remember, ADO.NET is not simply >> the next version of classic ADO... it's a whole new way to interface with >> your data. And, to answer your particular question, yes - ADO.NET will >> let >> you work as easily with PHP as you can with SQL Server, Oracle, Access, >> or >> any other database or data store (even XML files). >> >> About the starter kits - I recommended the Commerce one because it is, >> IMHO, the most straight-forward; it shows you a lot of the nuts-n-bolts. >> This is on contrast to the Portal kit which shows some very cool stuff >> (like serving up an entire non trivial site through only one aspx page) - >> but it's stuff most projects likely won't need. >> >> -HTH >> >> >> "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:eaWTn63bFHA.3492@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>> Thank your very much for bothering to answer this "old newbie". >>> >>> I will follow your advice. Particularly I will desect some of the sample >>> projects on www.asp.net to learn how code-behind truly works. Actually >>> it >>> sounds like an interesting concept, but I supose (without knowing >>> anything yet) that there are several degrees of code-behind depending on >>> how puritanic you are or how much time you have left to finish a job. I >>> guess that it also difficult for .NET developers to resist the >>> temptation >>> to get dirty and throw in a bit of inline code here and there just to >>> get >>> a project out of the door. >>> >>> I will also take a serious look at the book you suggest. >>> >>> Another question, now that I got you "on the line": Is it possible to >>> make VS.NET work perfectly / natively / transparently with MySQL? >>> >>> TB >>> >>> >>> "Jeffrey Todd" <M*@Somewhere.net> wrote in message >>> news:eM04AAsbFHA.1040@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... >>>> These 3 suggestions will hopefully help a lot: >>>> >>>> 1. Consider developing your aspx and ascx files in FrontPage, >>>> Dreamweaver, Notepad, or whatever is your favorite HTML and/or CSS >>>> editor - and limit your use of VS.NET to (1) all programming work >>>> (code-behind logic) and (2) launching you application for testing >>>> purposes. VS.NET 2003 most definitely NOT the place to write HTML - so >>>> no need for you to think about grid vs flow layouts. Reason being that >>>> VS.NET 2003 will rewrite your HTML for you - often with disastrous >>>> results. This link from a Microsoft insider explains: >>>> http://blogs.msdn.com/MikhailArkhipov/archive/2004/05/16/132886.aspx >>>> The upshot is that many of us use FrontPage or Dreamweaver for all >>>> HTML-specific work (i.e., ASPX and ASCX file development) and use >>>> VS.NET >>>> only for programming/code-behind work. The way I develop is that I keep >>>> a copy of Dreamweaver running at all times along side VS.NET 2003 - and >>>> switch between the two. One last point here is that VS.NET 2005 - due >>>> out in November or so - is expected to no longer have the HTML >>>> rendering >>>> and management issues that VS.NET 2003 has. >>>> >>>> 2. Get this book: Programming ASP.NET - by Dino Esposito - Microsoft >>>> Press. It puts everything in context - IMHO ideal for your situation. >>>> It's not a step-by-step tutorial, but it is more valuable because tells >>>> you how to understand ASP.NET. >>>> >>>> 3. Familiarize yourself with the starter kits at the following link: >>>> http://www.asp.net/Default.aspx?tabindex=8&tabid=47. I'd especially >>>> recommend that you download and disect the Commerce starter kit. The >>>> starter kits are complete ASP.NET Web applications and include all >>>> source code - which is very readable and well-documented. The Commerce >>>> starter kit is one of the simpler - so it would be a good starting >>>> point >>>> as it incorporates many fundamentals. >>>> >>>> -HTH >>>> >>>> -JT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>> news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>>> Hi all: >>>>> >>>>> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then >>>>> please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. >>>>> >>>>> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual >>>>> upgrade of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET >>>>> / VB.NET. >>>>> >>>>> While the study of the language differences and all the new features >>>>> in >>>>> .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit >>>>> shell-schocked after installing and running for the first time Visual >>>>> Studio .Net (2003 edition). >>>>> >>>>> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. >>>>> with a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of >>>>> Frontpage for page layout, and my browser to see the results when >>>>> running the page against a local instance of IIS. >>>>> >>>>> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from >>>>> yellow pages to accounting programs. >>>>> >>>>> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where >>>>> to >>>>> start. >>>>> >>>>> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to >>>>> programming, eliminating the need for external apps. During the past >>>>> couple of years I have developed my own little collection of helpers >>>>> which I use during development. >>>>> >>>>> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management >>>>> normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and >>>>> functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or >>>>> cut/paste - depending on the situation. >>>>> >>>>> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page >>>>> layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the >>>>> designed to be grid-based or flow-based. >>>>> >>>>> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different >>>>> files. I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, >>>>> subs etc above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between >>>>> <% >>>>> %> tags. This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. >>>>> >>>>> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to >>>>> move >>>>> to .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, >>>>> a tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy >>>>> which apparently could improve my productivity. >>>>> >>>>> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through >>>>> the same process would be most welcome. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> TB >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > Hi TB. WE have all gone through this very same stage that you are facing
right now. I remember when I was going through this transition myself... Feeling overwhelmed by VS.NET and not knowing what was the "best new way" of doing the things I did in the previous platform. Sit tight! You're in for a extremely thrilling ride with ASP.NET. The more you understand the ASP.NET infrastructure the more amazed you get and the more you want to learn. Yes, it can be frustrating not finding the usual functionality in the usual places, but I can ensure you all the functionality was kept and enhanced. The first thing you should keep in mind and learn how to apply is object oriented design and programming. When you start "getting" the spirit of the platform (like "the ASPX file produce a class at runtime that inheritd from the code-behind class), then you'll start to walk on your own. Another very important thing to master is the page life cycle (the order on which the events and methods are fired/called). Another thing that can be annoying in the begining is ADO.NET. But for any question you may have, the newsgroups is here and google groups is your best friend. Hope I can be of help - Sergio Show quoteHide quote "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > Hi all: > > If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then > please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. > > A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual upgrade of > my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET / VB.NET. > > While the study of the language differences and all the new features in ..NET > has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit shell-schocked after > installing and running for the first time Visual Studio .Net (2003 edition). > > Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. with a > bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of Frontpage for > page layout, and my browser to see the results when running the page against > a local instance of IIS. > > I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from yellow > pages to accounting programs. > > But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to > start. > > The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to programming, > eliminating the need for external apps. During the past couple of years I > have developed my own little collection of helpers which I use during > development. > > VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management normally > consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and functions) is kept > in separate files, which I either reference to or cut/paste - depending on > the situation. > > I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page layout. > In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the designed to be > grid-based or flow-based. > > Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different files. I > am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, subs etc above > the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% %> tags. This > approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. > > Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move to > .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, a > tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy which > apparently could improve my productivity. > > Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through the > same process would be most welcome. > > Thanks > > TB > > > Thanks for replying:
My idea of OOP is basically to make little collections of useful stuff: subs, functions, etc and give them a meanful name so that you can actually remember afterwards why you bothered lump them together in the first place. Is that too simplistic / old-fashioned? As I understand from the replies to this thread, VS.NET turns this practice into a kind of required religion and frowns upon excessive inline coding (which sometimes is suuuuch a temptation when you are in a hurry....). "Page life cycle" still doesn't mean a thing to me, but I guess I can read a book on that topic. ADO.NET: In classic ASP I have gotten pretty good at using disconnected models (open a connection, dumping all the stuff into strings / arrays, and closing rapidly the connetion again) and only change data by way of SQL (insert, update, delete instructions). Now that ADO.NET generally seems to operating on a disconnected level, does that mean all my hard-won SQL skills are now obsolete? ( I really like to write my own SQL lines). TB Show quoteHide quote "Sergio Pereira" <non***@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:OSqNhTsbFHA.2664@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... > Hi TB. WE have all gone through this very same stage that you are facing > right now. > I remember when I was going through this transition myself... Feeling > overwhelmed by VS.NET and not knowing what was the "best new way" of doing > the things I did in the previous platform. > Sit tight! You're in for a extremely thrilling ride with ASP.NET. The more > you understand the ASP.NET infrastructure the more amazed you get and the > more you want to learn. > Yes, it can be frustrating not finding the usual functionality in the > usual > places, but I can ensure you all the functionality was kept and enhanced. > The first thing you should keep in mind and learn how to apply is object > oriented design and programming. When you start "getting" the spirit of > the > platform (like "the ASPX file produce a class at runtime that inheritd > from > the code-behind class), then you'll start to walk on your own. > Another very important thing to master is the page life cycle (the order > on > which the events and methods are fired/called). > Another thing that can be annoying in the begining is ADO.NET. > > But for any question you may have, the newsgroups is here and google > groups > is your best friend. > > Hope I can be of help > > - Sergio > > > "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >> Hi all: >> >> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then >> please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. >> >> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual upgrade > of >> my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET / VB.NET. >> >> While the study of the language differences and all the new features in > .NET >> has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit shell-schocked > after >> installing and running for the first time Visual Studio .Net (2003 > edition). >> >> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. >> with > a >> bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of Frontpage for >> page layout, and my browser to see the results when running the page > against >> a local instance of IIS. >> >> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from yellow >> pages to accounting programs. >> >> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to >> start. >> >> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to programming, >> eliminating the need for external apps. During the past couple of years I >> have developed my own little collection of helpers which I use during >> development. >> >> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management > normally >> consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and functions) is >> kept >> in separate files, which I either reference to or cut/paste - depending >> on >> the situation. >> >> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page > layout. >> In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the designed to be >> grid-based or flow-based. >> >> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different files. > I >> am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, subs etc >> above >> the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% %> tags. This >> approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. >> >> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move >> to >> .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, a >> tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy which >> apparently could improve my productivity. >> >> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through >> the >> same process would be most welcome. >> >> Thanks >> >> TB >> >> >> > > TB,
Maybe your idea of OOP is not as complete as it can be. What you mentioned, sounds more like componentization than OOP in general. Componentization is indeed one characteristic of OOP, but does not represent the whole thing. The real challenge when moving to an object oriented platform is learning how things are organized/designed, then learn how to design those things yourself. When you're starting with ASP.NET, you should become familiar with the hierarchy chain of the important classes, like, Page derives from TemplateControl which derives from Control which implements IComponent, etc. After a while you will creating your own classes and base classes for (for example) your pages, so instead of placing common functionality in utility classes, you'll discover that the best place for some of the common functionality is in a common base class. It just takes a little time and practice (books can help too). You can still use your inline code, especially when you are in a hurry, but you'll learn that the recommended way of using a code behind file is much more maintainable and less error-prone. In ASP 3.0, the page runs fromt he top to the bottom, in a single pass. In ASP.NET the runtime will call different parts of your code in the appropriate moment. These moments are the phases in what I called the page life cycle. A book will help you for sure and I'd be happy to recommend Frits Onion's "Essential ASP.NET", which is not necessarily for beginners, but helps you tie the concepts together after you started writing your own pages but still don't feel like you are understanding what is going on behind the scenes. What I meant by ADO.NET being annoying is that it introduces a whole bunch of new objects that you have to learn how to use and how to decide which ones to use in each situation. Your SQL skills will be very valuable for you going forward. - Sergio Show quoteHide quote "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:eOx8QE4bFHA.3660@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... > Thanks for replying: > > My idea of OOP is basically to make little collections of useful stuff: > subs, functions, etc and give them a meanful name so that you can actually > remember afterwards why you bothered lump them together in the first place. > Is that too simplistic / old-fashioned? As I understand from the replies to > this thread, VS.NET turns this practice into a kind of required religion and > frowns upon excessive inline coding (which sometimes is suuuuch a temptation > when you are in a hurry....). > > "Page life cycle" still doesn't mean a thing to me, but I guess I can read a > book on that topic. > > ADO.NET: In classic ASP I have gotten pretty good at using disconnected > models (open a connection, dumping all the stuff into strings / arrays, and > closing rapidly the connetion again) and only change data by way of SQL > (insert, update, delete instructions). Now that ADO.NET generally seems to > operating on a disconnected level, does that mean all my hard-won SQL skills > are now obsolete? ( I really like to write my own SQL lines). > > TB > > "Sergio Pereira" <non***@nowhere.com> wrote in message > news:OSqNhTsbFHA.2664@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... > > Hi TB. WE have all gone through this very same stage that you are facing > > right now. > > I remember when I was going through this transition myself... Feeling > > overwhelmed by VS.NET and not knowing what was the "best new way" of doing > > the things I did in the previous platform. > > Sit tight! You're in for a extremely thrilling ride with ASP.NET. The more > > you understand the ASP.NET infrastructure the more amazed you get and the > > more you want to learn. > > Yes, it can be frustrating not finding the usual functionality in the > > usual > > places, but I can ensure you all the functionality was kept and enhanced. > > The first thing you should keep in mind and learn how to apply is object > > oriented design and programming. When you start "getting" the spirit of > > the > > platform (like "the ASPX file produce a class at runtime that inheritd > > from > > the code-behind class), then you'll start to walk on your own. > > Another very important thing to master is the page life cycle (the order > > on > > which the events and methods are fired/called). > > Another thing that can be annoying in the begining is ADO.NET. > > > > But for any question you may have, the newsgroups is here and google > > groups > > is your best friend. > > > > Hope I can be of help > > > > - Sergio > > > > > > "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > >> Hi all: > >> > >> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then > >> please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. > >> > >> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual upgrade > > of > >> my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET / VB.NET. > >> > >> While the study of the language differences and all the new features in > > .NET > >> has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit shell-schocked > > after > >> installing and running for the first time Visual Studio .Net (2003 > > edition). > >> > >> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. > >> with > > a > >> bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of Frontpage for > >> page layout, and my browser to see the results when running the page > > against > >> a local instance of IIS. > >> > >> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from yellow > >> pages to accounting programs. > >> > >> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to > >> start. > >> > >> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to programming, > >> eliminating the need for external apps. During the past couple of years I > >> have developed my own little collection of helpers which I use during > >> development. > >> > >> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management > > normally > >> consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and functions) is > >> kept > >> in separate files, which I either reference to or cut/paste - depending > >> on > >> the situation. > >> > >> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page > > layout. > >> In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the designed to be > >> grid-based or flow-based. > >> > >> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different files. > > I > >> am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, subs etc > >> above > >> the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% %> tags. This > >> approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. > >> > >> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move > >> to > >> .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, a > >> tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy which > >> apparently could improve my productivity. > >> > >> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through > >> the > >> same process would be most welcome. > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> TB > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > I think I know what you mean:
It is not as much a technology that you have to adopt but a mindset that continuously analyzes everything before you, trying recognise patterns in an endless cycle of refinement of generalized functions (i.e. objects) and a corresponding of reduction of original code mass for each product delivered. TB Show quoteHide quote "Sergio Pereira" <non***@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:O3P3Ik5bFHA.3184@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... > TB, > Maybe your idea of OOP is not as complete as it can be. What you > mentioned, > sounds more like componentization than OOP in general. Componentization is > indeed one characteristic of OOP, but does not represent the whole thing. > The real challenge when moving to an object oriented platform is learning > how things are organized/designed, then learn how to design those things > yourself. > When you're starting with ASP.NET, you should become familiar with the > hierarchy chain of the important classes, like, Page derives from > TemplateControl which derives from Control which implements IComponent, > etc. > After a while you will creating your own classes and base classes for (for > example) your pages, so instead of placing common functionality in utility > classes, you'll discover that the best place for some of the common > functionality is in a common base class. It just takes a little time and > practice (books can help too). > You can still use your inline code, especially when you are in a hurry, > but > you'll learn that the recommended way of using a code behind file is much > more maintainable and less error-prone. > In ASP 3.0, the page runs fromt he top to the bottom, in a single pass. In > ASP.NET the runtime will call different parts of your code in the > appropriate moment. These moments are the phases in what I called the page > life cycle. > A book will help you for sure and I'd be happy to recommend Frits Onion's > "Essential ASP.NET", which is not necessarily for beginners, but helps you > tie the concepts together after you started writing your own pages but > still > don't feel like you are understanding what is going on behind the scenes. > What I meant by ADO.NET being annoying is that it introduces a whole bunch > of new objects that you have to learn how to use and how to decide which > ones to use in each situation. Your SQL skills will be very valuable for > you > going forward. > > - Sergio > > > "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:eOx8QE4bFHA.3660@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... >> Thanks for replying: >> >> My idea of OOP is basically to make little collections of useful stuff: >> subs, functions, etc and give them a meanful name so that you can >> actually >> remember afterwards why you bothered lump them together in the first > place. >> Is that too simplistic / old-fashioned? As I understand from the replies > to >> this thread, VS.NET turns this practice into a kind of required religion > and >> frowns upon excessive inline coding (which sometimes is suuuuch a > temptation >> when you are in a hurry....). >> >> "Page life cycle" still doesn't mean a thing to me, but I guess I can >> read > a >> book on that topic. >> >> ADO.NET: In classic ASP I have gotten pretty good at using disconnected >> models (open a connection, dumping all the stuff into strings / arrays, > and >> closing rapidly the connetion again) and only change data by way of SQL >> (insert, update, delete instructions). Now that ADO.NET generally seems >> to >> operating on a disconnected level, does that mean all my hard-won SQL > skills >> are now obsolete? ( I really like to write my own SQL lines). >> >> TB >> >> "Sergio Pereira" <non***@nowhere.com> wrote in message >> news:OSqNhTsbFHA.2664@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... >> > Hi TB. WE have all gone through this very same stage that you are >> > facing >> > right now. >> > I remember when I was going through this transition myself... Feeling >> > overwhelmed by VS.NET and not knowing what was the "best new way" of > doing >> > the things I did in the previous platform. >> > Sit tight! You're in for a extremely thrilling ride with ASP.NET. The > more >> > you understand the ASP.NET infrastructure the more amazed you get and > the >> > more you want to learn. >> > Yes, it can be frustrating not finding the usual functionality in the >> > usual >> > places, but I can ensure you all the functionality was kept and > enhanced. >> > The first thing you should keep in mind and learn how to apply is >> > object >> > oriented design and programming. When you start "getting" the spirit of >> > the >> > platform (like "the ASPX file produce a class at runtime that inheritd >> > from >> > the code-behind class), then you'll start to walk on your own. >> > Another very important thing to master is the page life cycle (the >> > order >> > on >> > which the events and methods are fired/called). >> > Another thing that can be annoying in the begining is ADO.NET. >> > >> > But for any question you may have, the newsgroups is here and google >> > groups >> > is your best friend. >> > >> > Hope I can be of help >> > >> > - Sergio >> > >> > >> > "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> > news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >> >> Hi all: >> >> >> >> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then >> >> please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. >> >> >> >> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual > upgrade >> > of >> >> my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET / VB.NET. >> >> >> >> While the study of the language differences and all the new features >> >> in >> > .NET >> >> has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit shell-schocked >> > after >> >> installing and running for the first time Visual Studio .Net (2003 >> > edition). >> >> >> >> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. >> >> with >> > a >> >> bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of Frontpage > for >> >> page layout, and my browser to see the results when running the page >> > against >> >> a local instance of IIS. >> >> >> >> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from > yellow >> >> pages to accounting programs. >> >> >> >> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where >> >> to >> >> start. >> >> >> >> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to > programming, >> >> eliminating the need for external apps. During the past couple of >> >> years > I >> >> have developed my own little collection of helpers which I use during >> >> development. >> >> >> >> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management >> > normally >> >> consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and functions) is >> >> kept >> >> in separate files, which I either reference to or cut/paste - >> >> depending >> >> on >> >> the situation. >> >> >> >> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page >> > layout. >> >> In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the designed to be >> >> grid-based or flow-based. >> >> >> >> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different > files. >> > I >> >> am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, subs etc >> >> above >> >> the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% %> tags. This >> >> approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. >> >> >> >> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to >> >> move >> >> to >> >> .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, a >> >> tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy > which >> >> apparently could improve my productivity. >> >> >> >> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through >> >> the >> >> same process would be most welcome. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> TB >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > > When I switched over to .net, I found the book ASP.NET Unleashed quite
helpful. I've used it so much the binding is falling apart! Show quoteHide quote "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > Hi all: > > If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then > please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. > > A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual upgrade > of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET / VB.NET. > > While the study of the language differences and all the new features in > .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit shell-schocked > after installing and running for the first time Visual Studio .Net (2003 > edition). > > Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. with > a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of Frontpage > for page layout, and my browser to see the results when running the page > against a local instance of IIS. > > I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from yellow > pages to accounting programs. > > But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to > start. > > The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to programming, > eliminating the need for external apps. During the past couple of years I > have developed my own little collection of helpers which I use during > development. > > VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management > normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and > functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or > cut/paste - depending on the situation. > > I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page > layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the designed > to be grid-based or flow-based. > > Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different files. > I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, subs etc > above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% %> tags. > This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. > > Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move to > .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, a > tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy which > apparently could improve my productivity. > > Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through the > same process would be most welcome. > > Thanks > > TB > > > Will take a look at the book. Thanks
TB Show quoteHide quote "Rob T" <RTorcellini@DONTwalchemSPAM.com> wrote in message news:uLpkyvBcFHA.1152@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... > When I switched over to .net, I found the book ASP.NET Unleashed quite > helpful. I've used it so much the binding is falling apart! > > "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegro***@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >> Hi all: >> >> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then >> please bear with me, or simply skip this thread. >> >> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual upgrade >> of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET / VB.NET. >> >> While the study of the language differences and all the new features in >> .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit >> shell-schocked after installing and running for the first time Visual >> Studio .Net (2003 edition). >> >> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e. >> with a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of >> Frontpage for page layout, and my browser to see the results when running >> the page against a local instance of IIS. >> >> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from yellow >> pages to accounting programs. >> >> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to >> start. >> >> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to programming, >> eliminating the need for external apps. During the past couple of years I >> have developed my own little collection of helpers which I use during >> development. >> >> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management >> normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and >> functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or >> cut/paste - depending on the situation. >> >> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page >> layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the designed >> to be grid-based or flow-based. >> >> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different files. >> I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions, subs etc >> above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <% %> tags. >> This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET. >> >> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move >> to .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book, a >> tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy which >> apparently could improve my productivity. >> >> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through >> the same process would be most welcome. >> >> Thanks >> >> TB >> >> >> > >  
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