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Will ClickOnce replace a lot of ASP.NetWhile ASP.Net is migrating toward more robust presentation by using things
like AJAX I am wondering if ClickOnce will errode a lot of ASP.Net presence in Corporate Applications. I've been reading a lot about ClickOnce and it seems compelling particularily since Vista will have the .Net framework included along with the other requirements for ClickOnce deployment. Is there some downside to ClickOnce deployment that I'm now aware of? Thanks, T Hi,
Tina wrote: > While ASP.Net is migrating toward more robust presentation by using things ClickOnce is not intended as a replacement to standard web applications. > like AJAX I am wondering if ClickOnce will errode a lot of ASP.Net presence > in Corporate Applications. I've been reading a lot about ClickOnce and it > seems compelling particularily since Vista will have the .Net framework > included along with the other requirements for ClickOnce deployment. > > Is there some downside to ClickOnce deployment that I'm now aware of? > > Thanks, > T Some downsides of ClickOnce are: - Longer download times, because the client has to download more components before it can run things (in the worst case, it has to download the runtime framework, if not available). - Except in some cases (WPF browser applications, XBAP), ClickOnce leaves a trace on the client computer. The application, though it's not registered in the classic sense (registry), appears in the Start Menu. That's a downside for the Internet Café scenario, for instance. - Not universal like HTML, JavaScript and CSS. ClickOnce is only available when IE is installed, so only on Windows platforms. I asked Microsoft the exact same question a few months ago, and their reply is clear: ClickOnce is not going to replace ASP.NET, it's a complement. Keep an eye on WPF for Rich Internet Applications, things are moving fast in the world wide web, but don't worry too much, ASP.NET still has a bright future. HTH, Laurent -- Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch The push for ClickOnce has died down since Ajax and Atlas became so
popular. People were excited about ClickOnce back in November, 2005 because we could finally push out a rich client with network features (Smart Client). But with Atlas, you get that and do not have to install anything locally. I think Microsoft's efforts are better spent on Atlas, IIS 7 and Vista at this point. They can come back to ClickOnce if this whole web thing never takes off. :) BrennanLaurent Bugnion wrote: Show quote > Hi, > > Tina wrote: > > While ASP.Net is migrating toward more robust presentation by using things > > like AJAX I am wondering if ClickOnce will errode a lot of ASP.Net presence > > in Corporate Applications. I've been reading a lot about ClickOnce and it > > seems compelling particularily since Vista will have the .Net framework > > included along with the other requirements for ClickOnce deployment. > > > > Is there some downside to ClickOnce deployment that I'm now aware of? > > > > Thanks, > > T > > ClickOnce is not intended as a replacement to standard web applications. > Some downsides of ClickOnce are: > > - Longer download times, because the client has to download more > components before it can run things (in the worst case, it has to > download the runtime framework, if not available). > > - Except in some cases (WPF browser applications, XBAP), ClickOnce > leaves a trace on the client computer. The application, though it's not > registered in the classic sense (registry), appears in the Start Menu. > That's a downside for the Internet Café scenario, for instance. > > - Not universal like HTML, JavaScript and CSS. ClickOnce is only > available when IE is installed, so only on Windows platforms. > > I asked Microsoft the exact same question a few months ago, and their > reply is clear: ClickOnce is not going to replace ASP.NET, it's a > complement. > > Keep an eye on WPF for Rich Internet Applications, things are moving > fast in the world wide web, but don't worry too much, ASP.NET still has > a bright future. > > HTH, > Laurent > -- > Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft > Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch > PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures > Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch Hi,
offwh***@gmail.com wrote: > The push for ClickOnce has died down since Ajax and Atlas became so I continue to see RIAs installed over ClickOnce as a valid alternative > popular. People were excited about ClickOnce back in November, 2005 > because we could finally push out a rich client with network features > (Smart Client). But with Atlas, you get that and do not have to > install anything locally. to AJAX. The web browser has limitations, and will always have them. Sometimes it can be interesting to install a rich(er) client anyway. The sandbox, for example, prevents certain operations in the browser, and then a rich client becomes necessary. Also, certain graphical effects (3D, complex animations...) are simply impossible to realize in HTML, and sometimes plug-ins are not an option. Isn't it a crazy world, where November 2005 sounds like middle-age? ;-) (and I concur, it really does) > I think Microsoft's efforts are better spent on Atlas, IIS 7 and Vista I think that Microsoft has enough resources to work on more than one > at this point. They can come back to ClickOnce if this whole web thing > never takes off. project at a time ;-) The mere fact that XBAPs are deployed using ClickOnce shows that this is still of importance to them. > :) HTH,> > Brennan Laurent -- Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch Laurent,
Well, I'm only thinking about "closed environments" in organizations where everyone uses Windows with the framework and everyone uses I.E. I develop enterprise applications with ASP.Net - not public web sites. That removes a lot of your listed weak points. Also, I view Windows Froms programing as productive and I view JavaScript and Atlas as more of a non-productive mix of uh, stuff. Also, AJAX still seems kind of klunky to me. BTW, it's not that I am "worried." I think it would be nirvana to write functionality in Windows Forms. T Show quote "Laurent Bugnion" <galasoft***@bluewin.ch> wrote in message news:uBEGY4ZzGHA.480@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... > Hi, > > Tina wrote: >> While ASP.Net is migrating toward more robust presentation by using >> things like AJAX I am wondering if ClickOnce will errode a lot of ASP.Net >> presence in Corporate Applications. I've been reading a lot about >> ClickOnce and it seems compelling particularily since Vista will have the >> .Net framework included along with the other requirements for ClickOnce >> deployment. >> >> Is there some downside to ClickOnce deployment that I'm now aware of? >> >> Thanks, >> T > > ClickOnce is not intended as a replacement to standard web applications. > Some downsides of ClickOnce are: > > - Longer download times, because the client has to download more > components before it can run things (in the worst case, it has to download > the runtime framework, if not available). > > - Except in some cases (WPF browser applications, XBAP), ClickOnce leaves > a trace on the client computer. The application, though it's not > registered in the classic sense (registry), appears in the Start Menu. > That's a downside for the Internet Café scenario, for instance. > > - Not universal like HTML, JavaScript and CSS. ClickOnce is only available > when IE is installed, so only on Windows platforms. > > I asked Microsoft the exact same question a few months ago, and their > reply is clear: ClickOnce is not going to replace ASP.NET, it's a > complement. > > Keep an eye on WPF for Rich Internet Applications, things are moving fast > in the world wide web, but don't worry too much, ASP.NET still has a > bright future. > > HTH, > Laurent > -- > Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft > Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch > PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures > Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch I understand what you mean about Javascript slowing you down. It just
another language to add to the mix and it does add time to your test cycle so you can check the browsers you have to support. (now IE6 and IE7) But there are professional controls suites out there beyond Micorosoft Atlas. Here are the top ones that I know about. For the price of those controls you could eliminate the need to ever touch Javascript. http://www.infragistics.com/resource/Technologies/AJAX/Default.aspx http://www.componentart.com/webui.aspx Brennan Stehling http://brennan.offwhite.net/blog/ Tina wrote: Show quote > Laurent, > Well, I'm only thinking about "closed environments" in organizations where > everyone uses Windows with the framework and everyone uses I.E. I develop > enterprise applications with ASP.Net - not public web sites. > > That removes a lot of your listed weak points. Also, I view Windows Froms > programing as productive and I view JavaScript and Atlas as more of a > non-productive mix of uh, stuff. Also, AJAX still seems kind of klunky to > me. > > BTW, it's not that I am "worried." I think it would be nirvana to write > functionality in Windows Forms. > T > > "Laurent Bugnion" <galasoft***@bluewin.ch> wrote in message > news:uBEGY4ZzGHA.480@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... > > Hi, > > > > Tina wrote: > >> While ASP.Net is migrating toward more robust presentation by using > >> things like AJAX I am wondering if ClickOnce will errode a lot of ASP.Net > >> presence in Corporate Applications. I've been reading a lot about > >> ClickOnce and it seems compelling particularily since Vista will have the > >> .Net framework included along with the other requirements for ClickOnce > >> deployment. > >> > >> Is there some downside to ClickOnce deployment that I'm now aware of? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> T > > > > ClickOnce is not intended as a replacement to standard web applications. > > Some downsides of ClickOnce are: > > > > - Longer download times, because the client has to download more > > components before it can run things (in the worst case, it has to download > > the runtime framework, if not available). > > > > - Except in some cases (WPF browser applications, XBAP), ClickOnce leaves > > a trace on the client computer. The application, though it's not > > registered in the classic sense (registry), appears in the Start Menu. > > That's a downside for the Internet Café scenario, for instance. > > > > - Not universal like HTML, JavaScript and CSS. ClickOnce is only available > > when IE is installed, so only on Windows platforms. > > > > I asked Microsoft the exact same question a few months ago, and their > > reply is clear: ClickOnce is not going to replace ASP.NET, it's a > > complement. > > > > Keep an eye on WPF for Rich Internet Applications, things are moving fast > > in the world wide web, but don't worry too much, ASP.NET still has a > > bright future. > > > > HTH, > > Laurent > > -- > > Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft > > Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch > > PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures > > Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch Hi,
Tina wrote: > Laurent, I am wondering why you see that as "klunky". It's simply a client-server > Well, I'm only thinking about "closed environments" in organizations where > everyone uses Windows with the framework and everyone uses I.E. I develop > enterprise applications with ASP.Net - not public web sites. > > That removes a lot of your listed weak points. Also, I view Windows Froms > programing as productive and I view JavaScript and Atlas as more of a > non-productive mix of uh, stuff. Also, AJAX still seems kind of klunky to > me. communication mechanism. It's very similar to, say, .NET remoting. Of course it's asynchronous, so it needs to be very aware of what you're doing, but it's a modern way of programming anyway, unlike procedural, sequential applications. Or maybe I don't understand what you mean with "klunky"... As for JavaScript and ATLAS, it's very necessary to understand how the web works to program web applications. JavaScript is a very powerful language, and very flexible. But most JavaScript programmers don't truly understand this power, and use it wrongly. I think that many desktop applications programmers have a hard time changing to web application programming, because the concepts are very different, because of certain limitations that have to be considered, etc... Each scenario calls for a careful analysis, helping you to choose which application model you need. For the records, in the project I work on now, we are spending a lot of time carefully analysing the alternatives. For us, the possible candidates are: A classical web application, a web application with WPF/E, a XBAP application, a WPF application deployed via ClickOnce, or a WPF application deployed via MSI installation. WinForms are not an interesting alternative for us anymore. > Since I started working with WPF, it's not really attractive for me to > BTW, it's not that I am "worried." I think it would be nirvana to write > functionality in Windows Forms. go back to Windows Forms... I guess that every technology brings a whole new world of possibilities ;-) > T Greetings,Laurent -- Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch Laurent,
After reading up on this a bit it seems that the idea of WinFroms deployed via clickOnce has been replaced by Extensible Application Markup Language Browser Applications (XBAP). I went to the MSDN page where it looks like I can download beta WINFX 3.0 software but I'm afraid to do that on my main dev box because Beta software usually gums up things when the release version comes out. Is it viable to write XBAP apps today with the beta software? Does XBAP eliminate the need for ATLAS and JavaScript? (i notice there is a link to a "Blackjack Express Demo" XBAP application but it just leads to a download page where I have to build it myself using the beta software. Is there anyplace where I run an XBAP app in my browser?) Regards, T Show quote "Laurent Bugnion" <galasoft***@bluewin.ch> wrote in message news:uIHAaafzGHA.1292@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > Hi, > > Tina wrote: >> Laurent, >> Well, I'm only thinking about "closed environments" in organizations >> where everyone uses Windows with the framework and everyone uses I.E. I >> develop enterprise applications with ASP.Net - not public web sites. >> >> That removes a lot of your listed weak points. Also, I view Windows >> Froms programing as productive and I view JavaScript and Atlas as more of >> a non-productive mix of uh, stuff. Also, AJAX still seems kind of >> klunky to me. > > I am wondering why you see that as "klunky". It's simply a client-server > communication mechanism. It's very similar to, say, .NET remoting. Of > course it's asynchronous, so it needs to be very aware of what you're > doing, but it's a modern way of programming anyway, unlike procedural, > sequential applications. Or maybe I don't understand what you mean with > "klunky"... > > As for JavaScript and ATLAS, it's very necessary to understand how the web > works to program web applications. JavaScript is a very powerful language, > and very flexible. But most JavaScript programmers don't truly understand > this power, and use it wrongly. > > I think that many desktop applications programmers have a hard time > changing to web application programming, because the concepts are very > different, because of certain limitations that have to be considered, > etc... Each scenario calls for a careful analysis, helping you to choose > which application model you need. For the records, in the project I work > on now, we are spending a lot of time carefully analysing the > alternatives. For us, the possible candidates are: A classical web > application, a web application with WPF/E, a XBAP application, a WPF > application deployed via ClickOnce, or a WPF application deployed via MSI > installation. WinForms are not an interesting alternative for us anymore. > >> >> BTW, it's not that I am "worried." I think it would be nirvana to write >> functionality in Windows Forms. > > Since I started working with WPF, it's not really attractive for me to go > back to Windows Forms... I guess that every technology brings a whole new > world of possibilities ;-) > >> T > > Greetings, > Laurent > -- > Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft > Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch > PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures > Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch Hi Tina,
Tina wrote: > Laurent, No, I don't think that's correct. I think that WPF applications will > After reading up on this a bit it seems that the idea of WinFroms deployed > via clickOnce has been replaced by Extensible Application Markup Language > Browser Applications (XBAP). eventually replace WinForms, but XBAP will target another group of users. XBAPs are richer applications than HTML, but have less rights than installed, standalone applications. I really see that as a new target. Think of XBAPs a little like Flash applications without the HTML "container" around it. > I went to the MSDN page where it looks like I can download beta WINFX 3.0 Yes, the current CTP (community technology preview) is very stable. I > software but I'm afraid to do that on my main dev box because Beta software > usually gums up things when the release version comes out. > > Is it viable to write XBAP apps today with the beta software? know that many firms are even starting to develop productive software with WPF. In any case it is more than sufficient to test the concepts and write prototypes. I recommend against the July CTP though. It is not complete (the development environment is missing). Rather install the June CTP. See here: http://geekswithblogs.net/lbugnion/archive/2006/07/02/83859.aspx > Does XBAP eliminate the need for ATLAS and JavaScript? No. Absolutely not. It's a very different scenario. What the future (say, what web apps will be in 5 to 10 years) is difficult to know, but I am very confident that HTML based applications will still be developed then, and also other RIAs (rich internet applications), for example with WPF or other technologies. The next years are really going to be incredibly interesting, stay posted ;-) > (i notice there is a link to a "Blackjack Express Demo" XBAP application but I have a few prototypes on my site> it just leads to a download page where I have to build it myself using the > beta software. Is there anyplace where I run an XBAP app in my browser?) http://www.galasoft-lb.ch/mydotnet/WpfTests.TestActiveX/index.html http://www.galasoft-lb.ch/mydotnet/WpfTests.TestOpenWindow/index.html http://www.galasoft-lb.ch/mydotnet/WpfTests.TestPopUps/index.html but they're really just prototypes, or proof of concepts. Additionally, there is my WPF demo here http://www.galasoft-lb.ch/mydotnet/GalaSoftLb.Wpf.Demo/index.html However the demo is standalone. For very nice XBAP apps, check this: http://www.valil.com/winfx/Valil.Chess.WinFX.xbap http://www.valil.com/CrystalBall/CrystalBall.xbap There are more out there, keep in mind though that you need to have the correct version of the framework installed. HTH, Laurent -- Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch  |
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